Jump to content
EUkdazs

What musical hill are you prepared to die on?

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Mad Cyril said:

What do New Order have going for them?

 

 

Far too much to mention. 

 

I dont think much much can be gained by separating JD from NO, NO evolved out of JD. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Mad Cyril said:

What do New Order have going for them?

 

 

One of the greatest singles compilation, plus if you originally bought it on cassette. You got a shit hot b-side compilation as well.

 

IMG_1747.thumb.JPG.ec6675ad2146a0112a9480cc78cbd468.JPG

 

Plus some of the greatest sleeve design going, thanks to Peter Saville.

 

IMG_1752.thumb.JPG.b8a89370909a14cbb5b907e28594d614.JPG

IMG_1749.thumb.JPG.821e80f1ff2aaacd5bf2e4d97a4a3438.JPG

IMG_1748.JPG.2df9d280ac6086e3f0f50ed57b2fa60d.JPG

IMG_1750.thumb.PNG.762096bfd5e503aec63b95534e0325d4.PNG

IMG_1751.thumb.JPG.0341e3b61667ffb421e49c833c62af7f.JPG

 

Plus at the time, they owned one of the greatest clubs. The Haçienda.

 

IMG_1753.thumb.JPG.861fa3383c706cfbaf3ab59505e72a6a.JPG

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, The Hierophant said:

 

Far too much to mention. 

 

I dont think much much can be gained by separating JD from NO, NO evolved out of JD. 

 

3 hours ago, Mr Do 71 said:

 

One of the greatest single compilations going, plus if you originally bought it on cassette. You got a shit hot b-side compilation as well.

 

 

Fair enough! I've always struggled with the singer. I've only listened to PC+L though.

 

2 hours ago, CrispinFoetus said:

Captain Beefheart aren't a challenging listen, they're just shit.

Have you heard Safe as milk? More traditional garage blues rock lp. Love that record.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Protocol Penguin said:

 

NO > JD. 

 

Joy Division would barely be remembered without New Order, and both JD albums only really have Martin Hannett’s icy production going for them.

Fucking hell. There's some stuff in this thread I can't be arsed with either way - Radiohead are crap, ooh edgy. But that's brave, very brave. 

 

Both of Joy Divisions albums are worthy as being classed masterpieces, they are influential beyond many other artists, to this day, and whilst obviously I love New Order (and don't trust anyone's opinion who doesn't tbh) but Joy Division are in another league.

 

I mean put it this way - when Danny Brown named his album after one of their songs and cites them as a major  influence you know they're a little bit different, a little bit special. 

 

I'll just leave this here, now officially track of the day.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

24 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Both of Joy Divisions albums are worthy as being classed masterpieces, they are influential beyond many other artists, to this day, and whilst obviously I love New Order (and don't trust anyone's opinion who doesn't tbh) but Joy Division are in another league.

They are widely influential albums, yes, and there are tracks and ideas on both that I still like... I just think that Martin Hannett did most of the heavy lifting and was the driving force behind the albums being recognised. (The vocal tracks on both are shocking in places though, widely out of tune and timing.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Camel said:

It [36 Chambers] changed everything and was massively influential so you might not be aware of just how different it was at the time.

That's fair. But should a classic album need context or should the music itself hold up on its own merit? In that regard, I am in a similar position to that young intern that wasn't feeling Public Enemy's 'classic album' in the Guardian article that Mad Cyril posted. I'm just stirring though - there is no set definition for a classic album. Music is all a matter of opinion anyway. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It completely stands up on its own merit. I'm just trying to help you make sense of your patently wonky opinion of the album :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Protocol Penguin said:

 

They are widely influential albums, yes, and there are tracks and ideas on both that I still like... I just think that Martin Hannett did most of the heavy lifting and was the driving force behind the albums being recognised. (The vocal tracks on both are shocking in places though, widely out of tune and timing.)

 

This from someone that likes New Order? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure lowering his register would make him 'sing out of tune' - Curtis' vocals remain a curiosity. He often affected an American accent too, but despite all these affectations, false registers and so on, his performance is no less powerful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Protocol Penguin said:

Barney Sumner is at least realistic about his vocal limitations, and has never sang with a false baritone voice which he struggled to barely stay ‘in character’ for.

 

So... it's okay for Sumner to be guilty of what you accuse Curtis of because he's "realistic" about how poor his voice is? Christ.

 

There are plenty of singers with limitations that still sound great and Curtis is a prime example. His voice is "off" but there's an inviting character about the way it sounds. It suits the music. I wouldn't have his voice any other way.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curtis had charisma at least. He also had some great lyrics.Sumner has all the presence of a baked bean. I shouldn't shit on New Order though, really haven't heard enough by them. That Substance is getting saved on spotify.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If he were still around today he'd probably be autotuned to fuck with guest appearances by Shaggy which, obviously, would be amazing.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ian Curtis is my favourite singer. 'The bodies obtained' is one of my favourite lines, so simple and effective. Joy Division is so much about his voice for me, more than the production of Hannett.

 

His voice is indescribable, it's so fragile and honest but brutal. It evokes with the lyrics and music a dystopia. Like in two different lines he can be the evil overlord whose face is projected large above the controlled inmates of an asylum in some 1984 totalitarian nightmare...or one of the tortured inmates. Their music expresses so much, there's no frivolity, no indulgence. It cuts through you.

 

 

'This is the way, step inside' is another favourite. It's so good.

 

Joy Division are on another level to nearly every other band i think. Did once read someone say in a thread like this; 'Joy Division are overrated and only have one good track in Love Will Tear Us Apart'.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Nirvana are bloody rubbish. I've tried so many times. Even in a playlist if one track comes on i only last 30 seconds, it's like if mould had a sound. People will go on about that new york acoustic live show. Or their second album. It's all dirge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nirvana were a good punk pop group, nothing more. Great singer, good but overrated drummer and some terrible lyrics. I mean compare nonsense like 'Rape Me' to anything Ian Curtis wrote, it's trite sixth form rubbish. Most of all though they're so plain musically speaking. None of the weirdness of Pixies or the other groups that inspired them. I guess that's why they were huge. 'Teen Spirit' is a classic though, I stand by that. Pop perfection.

  • Downvote 1
  • Empathy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Mr Do 71 said:

 

One of the greatest singles compilation, plus if you originally bought it on cassette. You got a shit hot b-side compilation as well.

 

IMG_1747.thumb.JPG.ec6675ad2146a0112a9480cc78cbd468.JPG

 

The cassette version of Substance was amazing. And my introduction to NO.

 

 

 

 

Then they released Technique!

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

Nirvana were a good punk pop group, nothing more. Great singer, good but overrated drummer and some terrible lyrics. I mean compare nonsense like 'Rape Me' to anything Ian Curtis wrote, it's trite sixth form rubbish. Most of all though they're so plain musically speaking. None of the weirdness of Pixies or the other groups that inspired them. I guess that's why they were huge. 'Teen Spirit' is a classic though, I stand by that. Pop perfection.

 

Nirvana were great.

 

 

For Pixies rip-off merchants. ;)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Loik V credern said:

I think Nirvana are bloody rubbish. I've tried so many times. Even in a playlist if one track comes on i only last 30 seconds, it's like if mould had a sound. People will go on about that new york acoustic live show. Or their second album. It's all dirge.

I'll tell you who are underrated though, Love Battery, similar influences to Nirvana, from the same scene, but much more enjoyable imo. Dayglo is a great record of theirs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Mad Cyril said:

Have you heard Safe as milk? More traditional garage blues rock lp. Love that record.

 

Safe as Milk, Clear Spot and The Spotlight Kid are the three Captain Beefheart albums I'm most familiar with, and I really like most tracks on all three. (I've also heard Unconditionally Guaranteed by the "Tragic Band", and it's as poor as its reputation suggests.)

 

As for Trout Mask Replica... I do believe that it was all deliberately constructed rather than random chaos, I think that buried within it are more catchy hooks than it generally gets credit for, and I find the story of its creation fascinating. And despite the tales of the horrendous abuse Van Vliet put his musicians through in the name of his Art, I think the album has more of a sense of humour about itself than people give it credit for: there are moments on it (e.g. "The Blimp" and the "that's right, The Mascara Snake!" announcements) that are probably funnier than almost anything else I've heard involving Frank Zappa, and it doesn't have the vague air of smug superiority that so much of his stuff carries. (I often find Zappa more interesting and entertaining to read about than he is to listen to.)

 

But still... eighty minutes of intentionally clashing noises is a lot to take in. I think it's been about ten years since my first listen to the whole thing from start to finish, about five years since my second, and I'm quite happy to leave it a bit longer before I give it another go!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Hierophant said:

 

Nirvana were great.

 

 

For Pixies rip-off merchants. ;)  

The Wipers, Dinosaur Jr and Killing Joke were pretty big influences on Nirvana too. Pretty blatantly at times too (e.g. the main riff was from Nirvana’s Lithium was from KJ’s Eighties, just slowed down).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

23 hours ago, Stanley said:

Fucking hell. There's some stuff in this thread I can't be arsed with either way - Radiohead are crap, ooh edgy. But that's brave, very brave. 

 

Both of Joy Divisions albums are worthy as being classed masterpieces, they are influential beyond many other artists, to this day, and whilst obviously I love New Order (and don't trust anyone's opinion who doesn't tbh) but Joy Division are in another league.

 

I mean put it this way - when Danny Brown named his album after one of their songs and cites them as a major  influence you know they're a little bit different, a little bit special. 

 

I'll just leave this here, now officially track of the day.

 

 

 

I get why people think Joy Division were particularly special because of the lyrics and power of Curtis. As much as I love them, and listen to them absolutely loads, personally those albums are just a bit too gloomy in places for me to stick on in full very often.

 

And the stuff they did post death of Curtis as New Order was just as influential wasn't it?

 

What I particularly love about them as a band( both of them) is how idiosyncratic and wonderful they all are separately. I'd happily bung both Morris and Hook as may favourite ever drummer and bass player. But then all distinctive members magically come together to make something even better than the sum of their parts. Joy Division and New Order were both in another league. 

 

It has to be Sumner's role that stands out as the reason I personally love them so much though. The driving force behind increasingly using electronics, moving in a dance direction, and the one with the strongest pop sensibility. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.