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Joker origin film - Joaquin Phoenix Confirmed

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2 hours ago, denisb said:

 

 

This .

 

some of the best films and best times I’ve had were at the electric in brum

 

 

 

I would genuinely love to but I live in the middle of Yorkshire and my local indie only ever shows box office films (just weeks down the line).

 

I'm hoping when we get the new cinema in my town (it's going to be an everyman) they might show some more independent films.

 

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31 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

I would genuinely love to but I live in the middle of Yorkshire and my local indie only ever shows box office films (just weeks down the line).

 

I'm hoping when we get the new cinema in my town (it's going to be an everyman) they might show some more independent films.

 

I’m the same now it’s 120 mile round trip for my nearest multiplex chain 

 

I like my local but it’s either the big films or live ballet 

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42 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

I would genuinely love to but I live in the middle of Yorkshire and my local indie only ever shows box office films (just weeks down the line).

 

I'm hoping when we get the new cinema in my town (it's going to be an everyman) they might show some more independent films.

 

I’m the same now it’s 120 mile round trip for my nearest multiplex chain 

 

I like my local but it’s either the big films or live ballet 

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Even in Glasgow, apart from the chain multiplexes (Odeon and Cineworld the dominant ones) we have an IMAX... which is run by Cineworld. There's a recently opened Everyman (only shows mainstream stuff, but more expensive and serves dinner) and a couple of independents. One of the two Indies is actually part of a regional pub/club chain so only shows mainstream stuff for the most part too.  Thankfully we have the excellent GFT. Edinburgh is easy enough to get to as well and has several options.

 

 

There's a new multiplex being built by Vue.

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On 09/10/2019 at 09:20, Harsin said:

It's interesting watching the way the US media seems to be going a bit ape at the moment.

 

I recently watched Lindsay Ellis' video about how Disney is trying to appear woke to make profits. She talks about how it's all surface level stuff, it's never the institutions themselves at fault, it's just a bad seed individual causing trouble. A lion monarchy is a good thing. A Sultancy is great as long as the rIght person gets it.  Throwing in the occasional facile girl power scene while ignoring the organisation's problematic history when it comes to race and public ally patting themselves on the back.
 

This is the rare big(ish) budget mainstream film that goes after the institutions themselves* and many of the same outlets that like to pat themselves on the back about how progressive they are because they watched Punchman VII where Punchman happens to have a black sidekick or something are freaking out about how 'dangerous' the film is.  It's the Lib Dem school of film criticism.


* Of course I'm aware that this is a film from a multi billion dollar corporation.


The moral panic of Liberals struggling to grasp the times they're in is amusing. There's a good discussion of the film and the wider politics on Chapo:
 

 

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18 hours ago, Indistinct chattering said:

Those films are all well below par compared to whats being released in (decent) cinemas. Try to get your hands on High Life, Birds of Passage, Parasite, Long Days Journey Into Night, Hagazussa, Climax, The Lighthouse (all from this year only). 

Its been an AMAZING year for cinema. Fucking sucks that these films dont reach you.

Thanks for these recommendations! :hat:

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What a film. Went in with high expectations and was not dissapointed. J.P. Is one of the finest actors of his generation and this makes a fine companion piece to his other recent work, "You were never really here". 

 

So much memorable scenes and the fantastic use of colour to create mood totally lept out at me.

 

Spoiler

I noticed an overwhelming use of blue/aqua and orange in many scenes and then noticed that it's the colour of his suit. By the time he is the Joker, he is quite literally a product of his surroundings. 

 

I really think all those that have criticised the film for the dangerous loner type thing have completely missed the point of the film (or are too scared of the grim message it delivers). It's a film for these times and never been more relevant.

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Went and saw this again today, it’s even better the second time round and just so powerful, if you can see it in imax then do as it looked much better first time around but my word what a film :wub:

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On 05/10/2019 at 10:12, Mawdlin said:

There's a scene early on, in the dressing room, where Arthur's face is turned away from the camera and you see this emaciated, twisted, bruised body and I honestly thought it was a body double. There's a history of method actors fasting for roles but this is extreme. It's also to do with Phoenix's tortured posture. Just a fantastic performance throughout.

 

Him tearing at his shoe and the ripping sound it makes really adds to this, very nice screenplay.

 

 

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Just watched King of Comedy and the scene at the very end when he’s running away at the ward is exactly the same as when Pupkin is running away from the guards. There’s also the abusive mother, to the music being use which are also the same but framed differently. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, yakumo said:

Just watched King of Comedy and the scene at the very end when he’s running away at the ward is exactly the same as when Pupkin is running away from the guards. There’s also the abusive mother, to the music being use which are also the same but framed differently. 

 

 

I may have to refresh my memory of this movie before going to see Joker for the third time. Just got an itch to see it again.

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2 hours ago, Mawdlin said:

I may have to refresh my memory of this movie before going to see Joker for the third time. Just got an itch to see it again.

There's a few scenes which parallel Joker. Some are more obvious than others.  Going to watch Taxi Driver next but the most obvious scene would be the gun to the head gesture Travis does.

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I did not especially like this film. Phoenix is a great actor, but the film around his performance is slight, the plot clunks in places and I found it kind of dull despite the odd moment of cathartic violence. You can dress these movies in all the po-faced aesthetics you like - they’re still wafer thin.

 

Ledger made a far more compelling Joker with less material.

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On 06/10/2019 at 21:21, Loik V credern said:

I seem to be the only person disappointed 

 

  Hide contents

there's not much eventual Joker in the film. We've seen Phoenix play deformed wounded before, he's the best in the world at doing it, and i think his acting in The Master is some of the greatest of all time. The cinematography is exceptional, the way Phillips enhances Phoenix's morbid physicality is stunning. It starts with him just leaning over at work and carries on from there, constantly contorting his body in ugly ways. 

 

Phoenix is so good i wanted to see him go all out. The short teaser clip where he's facing the camera and smiling then raises his eyebrow to go serious is so menacing and fully transformational it was really that which i was excited about seeing. People will say; well we've already seen that full on unhinged Joker, but we've not seen Phoenix do it. I don't want to see him robbing banks, i want to see him be frightening. I loved when De Niro's character says; 'what did i do?', and Phoenix replies 'you showed my tape', the way he says it. His eyes vibrating with an anger and agony. The way he inhabits characters, transmits their turmoil. 

 

There's a lot of The Machinist in there, slow lingering shots of him in his flat wasting away, the outside scenes not knowing what is real and what isn't. At what point were people sure the neighbour becoming his girlfriend was false. I thought she was entirely fictional, the bit where he knocks on her door and she embraces him the point it became obvious it was his fantasy. 

 

The film is kind of what i expected from Phillips. Maybe less of a brooding atmosphere and more Joker. Phillips said this film wasn't about introducing Joaquin Phoenix to the comic-book universe, but to introduce comic-book movies to the Joaquin Phoenix universe, i liked that way of putting it. 

 

The film builds towards Joker being interviewed and point blank executing the tv host he once adored, did it need for him to hit so many lows for us to believe that outcome was inevitable. It builds and builds until i thought it's never gonna get there. I found the end flat, the riots and protesters don't ever interact with Joker, the film doesn't spend any time fleshing that out, then when he becomes their hero it's only effective because of Phoenix's acting, again the look in his eyes, how rejuvenated he feels.

 

I'd probably give it a 7, it needed to go up a level for me, escalate. Like mother!, and that's just set in a house, and look at where that goes. Phillips talks like someone who doesn't hold back, like wanting to be brazen and bold. The clearest thing about his War Dogs was how unambitious and safe it was about a story that was so insane. And again here, so much of the character study impressive, the use of music, the slow zooms in and out, but he's still failing to be bold I think. 

 

Agree with all of that. 

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On 06/10/2019 at 13:06, Strafe said:

There’s a wide angle shot of Gotham where it looks huge - with the slums in the foreground and the scores of massive skyscrapers in the distance - like it goes on forever. That was pretty amazing looking.

 

Im 99% sure that was just the Bronx

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1 hour ago, Mr Combo Breaker said:

 

Im 99% sure that was just the Bronx

 

I think it was but I'm quite sure it was altered to make it much bigger and a few skyscrapers added etc

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I found this pretty underwhelming. I just didn't buy any of it; or at least, I didn't buy that this guy was going to become a comic supervillain.

Like, I can believe that someone with severe mental health issues and a truly bleak existence in a world designed to fuck over people like him might eventually snap if pushed hard enough. It's a bit sketchy that this person would inspire a popular uprising, but I guess I can just about believe that. Do I believe that this guy will turn into the Joker, and commit various heavily themed super-crimes? No, in the same way that I didn't buy that the little boy who sees his parents murdered will go off, dig a big hole under his mansion and fill it with loads of sci-fi gadgets, and then dress up as a bat in bat-themed body armour, and spend his life micro-managing crime in a city of millions of people by hiding in alleyways and giving individual muggers a kicking. Does that seem like something that might happen in the universe of this film? Or even just the dressing up as a bat and fighting crime bit? Not really. I can believe he'd have a bleak existence characterised by suppressed anger, domestic violence, substance abuse, and emotional illiteracy, which admittedly sounds a little bit like Batman but sounds more like a character from a Bret Easton Ellis novel, and Patrick Bateman and Victor Ward are more on the 'demand' side of crime.



 

I guess that's the issue with trying to ascribe realistic motives to completely unreal characters. Alan Moore tried it in the Killing Joke, and the man himself said it was a failure, because the Joker is not like any human who has ever lived, so you can't explain their character in terms of something that might happen to a real human. Invoking child abuse felt a bit crass to me, because it seems to be saying "well, Joker is a pretty extreme character, so something pretty extreme must have happened to him. Maybe child abuse is sufficient to turn someone into a Joker?" But nobody could possibly turn into a Joker, so it feels like a waste of time to try and explain it how it could happen, and a double waste of time to explain it using child abuse. It feels like it's in there because the filmmakers want it to be Serious Art that proves that Comics Have Grown Up, but I don't really see much that's grown up about using brutal childhood trauma as character motivation in the way it was used here.

 

I dunno. It was hardly boring, but I never really felt that engaged. I feel like I got more out of this film when it was the King of Comedy and Taxi Driver. 

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So I went to see this for the third time, this time with my girlfriend which made for an interesting evening. One thing stood out.

 

Spoiler

The part with the little guy stuck in the apartment gets better with every viewing.

 

The first time I watched this sequence it didn't make me laugh and to be honest I was a bit confused by it. I didn't really know how to feel. I have a very dark sense of humour and like awkward comedy so this should have appealed to me. To be honest I think the scene just didn't go the way I thought it was going to go (on the first viewing), so it left me a bit cold. If I search my feelings I think it's because I expected the guy to get offed and I was disappointed this didn't happen. Yes, I know that's dark, but so be it.

 

But watching it again with my girlfriend I could appreciate how emotionally manipulative that scene is. Whether you like it or not that scene is the funniest part of the movie. (There are not many laughs in the movie, admittedly).

 

I know I don't always have the 'appropriate' response to violence because I often quite enjoy watching it. In the same way I didn't laugh at *that* scene in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I now know why. I think the build up of tension and then the release is what makes it 'funny'. But to me it's just violence so I don't really get why it's funny as such. 

 

Anyway, back to Joker: the part with the chain on the door had my girlfriend holding her hands over her eyes. (She clearly has a pretty normal response to violence). And she's laughing too. And the rest of the audience is laughing. I don't think that's a sick response, it's actually a kind of clever release of tension.

 

And then Arthur opens the door to let him out but suddenly closes it again. Trapping him. My girlfriend is actually squirming in her seat. It's quite an extreme reaction. One that's echoed around the theatre. A powerful moment. The music, the tension, the build up of the last hour of the movie, our expectations of how this always goes in horror/thriller movies. Then he lets him go with a kiss.

 

 

 

And still I've got the stair scene to look forward to.

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On 09/10/2019 at 04:20, Harsin said:

It's interesting watching the way the US media seems to be going a bit ape at the moment.

 

I recently watched Lindsay Ellis' video about how Disney is trying to appear woke to make profits. She talks about how it's all surface level stuff, it's never the institutions themselves at fault, it's just a bad seed individual causing trouble. A lion monarchy is a good thing. A Sultancy is great as long as the rIght person gets it.  Throwing in the occasional facile girl power scene while ignoring the organisation's problematic history when it comes to race and public ally patting themselves on the back.
 

This is the rare big(ish) budget mainstream film that goes after the institutions themselves* and many of the same outlets that like to pat themselves on the back about how progressive they are because they watched Punchman VII where Punchman happens to have a black sidekick or something are freaking out about how 'dangerous' the film is.  It's the Lib Dem school of film criticism.


* Of course I'm aware that this is a film from a multi billion dollar corporation.

I find myself coming down to this view as well after having seen the film.

 

I can’t remember the last time a mainstream movie came down this hard on the rich, the famous and powerful. This after countless comic-book films featuring hero kings beating the shit out of BLM activists(Black Panther), Military Contractors beating up middle-eastern soldiers(Iron Man) and Captain America, paragon of White Liberal American Patriotism.

 

All those films are praised for their ‘diversity’ and ‘representation’ and yet all those films uphold the status quo as is and codify REVOLUTION = EVIL! Never rock the boat to much, the only thing we need to defeat evil is heroic CEO’s, heroic military officers or heroic monarchs. The rest of us can just sit down, shut up and thank the benevolent overlords.

 

And then here we have a film that takes a character that in recent times has had a big reactionary fanbase and uses that character to illuminate the increased stigmatization and isolation of the mentally ill, rightfully attacking the current status quo in the process. Pointing out how much the powers that be are responsible for taking away his ability to heal. Arthur’s biggest crime before his transformation is that he needs help and can’t get it.

 

And because one film has the balls to say that the powerful bear some responsibility for this, immediately we get a fucking parade of think pieces, news outlets, movie critics, etc. calling this an incel hate fest that will empower the right. It’s really hard not to notice how transparent it is, isn’t it?

 

The response to it is just out and out shameful. It just winds up proving a point the film makes: that nobody really cares about the mentally ill. Not unless people need a laugh or to be angry to forget their own fucking misery.

 

Sorry, really needed to get that of my chest. Been carrying that around for days now.

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How does a film with such a damaging and crass depiction of mental illness “illuminate the increased stigmatization and isolation of the mentally ill”?

 

The whole thing is almost as cartoonish as the asylum scene in IT: Chapter Two.

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1 hour ago, CarloOos said:

How does a film with such a damaging and crass depiction of mental illness “illuminate the increased stigmatization and isolation of the mentally ill”?

 

Explain please? It isnt just his metal health issues that cause him to snap, it's a multitude of things

 

Spoiler

from him being beaten up multiple times, losing his therapy care and access to meds, losing a job he loves, being betrayed by his "friends", being rejected by the man he believes to be his father, finding out the truth about his mother and his traumatic childhood, being mocked on national television by his idol. All this boiled together at a time in which Gotham as a city is on the brink of civil unrest with business going under and garbage strikes causing it to pile up on the streets. A time where the down trodden like Arthur are being pushed further and further into the mud. 

 

This isnt just "man with mental health issues snaps and kills people because hes mentally ill". Its quite clearly more than just that.

 

Also mentally ill people can and do cause damage to themselves and people. Metal illness isnt just down to one thing where you can put in a box and say "this is mental illness and this is how people who are mentally ill act". It affects people in many different ways. So how is it a damaging depiction to show that one man who's mind is dangerous cause harm? Those people do exist in real life.

 

How far do you take this? Do we just stop showing the really bad and negative side of things in film/tv altogether?

 

Here we see it contribute to his descent but as I've said, a combination of everything is the reason for the results not just his illness.

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