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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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It feels like they probably had to cut a lot to get it under 2.5 hours, and should have fixed that before they started filming. I’m pretty sure that the casino planet was meant to have a lot more to it as far as Finn is concerned, something to link up his reluctant hero thing in the beginning and his self sacrifice at the end. I think that whole section was meant to more strongly drive him to understand what the Rebellion is fighting for and what we have left is just a bit more than the bare plot necessities

 

If they needed to cut for length it should have been the second finale on the mineral planet, but that would’ve left Luke and Kylo’s arc unresolved and it was obviously a very expensive sequence. It just doesn’t fit - they let all the air out of the drama with the first daring self-sacrifice that let the Rebellion escape, they didn’t need to do a second one - but they really couldn’t cut that given what was already loaded into it. They should’ve fixed that before they started filming. 

 

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:
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It feels like they probably had to cut a lot to get it under 2.5 hours, and should have fixed that before they started filming. I’m pretty sure that the casino planet was meant to have a lot more to it as far as Finn is concerned, something to link up his reluctant hero thing in the beginning and his self sacrifice at the end. I think that whole section was meant to more strongly drive him to understand what the Rebellion is fighting for and what we have left is just a bit more than the bare plot necessities

 

If they needed to cut for length it should have been the second finale on the mineral planet, but that would’ve left Luke and Kylo’s arc unresolved and it was obviously a very expensive sequence. It just doesn’t fit - they let all the air out of the drama with the first daring self-sacrifice that let the Rebellion escape, they didn’t need to do a second one - but they really couldn’t cut that given what was already loaded into it. They should’ve fixed that before they started filming. 

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I absolutely agree that they should have ended with Holdo's sacrifice, the remnants of the resistance hiding in space Helm's Deep, and Rey's relationship status set to "It's complicated". Maybe Yoda's Spirit Tree talking Luke out of his strop could have been the opening scene of the next film. The climax-after-the-climax stuff felt like either a failure of having each film's director toss the torch over the fence to the next, or somebody's obsession with putting in an analogue for every last part of the Empire Strikes Back.

 

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11 hours ago, Boothjan said:

 

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Of course I'm excited! I want to know what happens to Ren and Rey. Will Poe assume leadership of the resistance? How will the First Order cope with an unstable leader? Will we see a slave uprising?

 

 



It would be absolutely hilarious if Poe ends up in charge after all his alpha male hero antics wiped out all of the existing leadership and all of the women he's learned from are dead. Of course Leia was supposed to be major part of IX but now that isn't possible this is probably what will happen. 

 

I'm still thinking about it and I did enjoy the movie but thinking back things that make me laugh include: Finn's suicide attack on the cannon, all that was missing was 'hello boys, I'm back' for the perfect Independence Day homage.

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13 minutes ago, Mr Cochese said:
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Yeah, I absolutely agree that they should have ended with Holdo's sacrifice, the remnants of the resistance hiding in space Helm's Deep, and Rey's relationship status set to "It's complicated". Maybe Yoda's Spirit Tree talking Luke out of his strop could have been the opening scene of the next film. The climax-after-the-climax stuff felt like either a failure of having each film's director toss the torch over the fence to the next, or somebody's obsession with putting in an analogue for every last part of the Empire Strikes Back.

 

 

The problem with that is

Spoiler

 

Luke then doesn't have an arc. If you end without his projection trick, then he's just been a complete ass the entire movie and it ends. So then you have to do something with him, and then that will unwind other parts of the story...

 

The movie has clearly been thought out to work arcs and plots. It just doesn't quite work in execution IMO.

 

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2 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

The problem with that is

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Luke then doesn't have an arc. If you end without his projection trick, then he's just been a complete ass the entire movie and it ends. So then you have to do something with him, and then that will unwind other parts of the story...

 

The movie has clearly been thought out to work arcs and plots. It just doesn't quite work in execution IMO.

 

What was Yoda's arc in Empire Strikes Back?

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My only desire for Episode 9 is that they give Chewbacca something cool to do again, other than be the BEST DAD REY EVER HAD. 

Chewie was a fucking delight in TFA but had hardly anything to do here other than interact with the Porgs and fly like a cool motherfucker in one bit.

 

Ideally, for me, 

Spoiler

Chewie would be the one to take out Kylo in the end. Justice for Han! I know people have said Chewie *couldn't* do it as he's obviously watched Ben grow from being a baby and probably acted as a fierce protector of him for year but to that I say; he shot him in the nuts with his Bowcaster already. He's ready to off him.
Plus it would be a nice wee change for the Big Force User to get REKT by a Wookie; rather than going out in a lightsaber battle.

 

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40 minutes ago, Mr Cochese said:

What was Yoda's arc in Empire Strikes Back?

 

I don't think it's a valid comparison. Luke isn't introduced in this movie. He's a character we followed for three previous movies. You can't just treat him like a plot device.

 

Anyway, Yoda acting silly to test Luke, then training him and then being proved tight that Luke's a hothead can probably be considered a mini arc. 

Spoiler

The equivalent to what's suggested above is Yoda pretending to be a weird hermit creature for the entire film.

 

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Spoiler

Finn replacing Poe would mean no Oscar Isaac, who for me is the only actor/character I liked watching in TFA and in this, not because he's a well rounded character, but because Isaac is an infinitely better actor than the rest. Maybe I just prefer the bravado, the no nonsense swash buckling approach to everything, maybe I just prefer him because he's removed from being insipid and wet and dramatically emotional. Adam Driver's conflict is well acted, Mark Hamill is grizzled and great, but the weight of their scenes is a bit wearing for the non Star Wars devotees, me at least. A Star Wars film where Oscar Isaac is in every scene would be preferable to me, he doesn't need a character arc, I wouldn't even need a plot, nothing would need to carry meaning and weight or purpose. You'd watch it and, go; yeah, enjoyed that, and that would be it.

 

re barkbat's post

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24 minutes ago, Glasgowchivas said:

My only desire for Episode 9 is that they give Chewbacca something cool to do again, other than be the BEST DAD REY EVER HAD. 

Chewie was a fucking delight in TFA but had hardly anything to do here other than interact with the Porgs and fly like a cool motherfucker in one bit.

 

Ideally, for me, 

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Chewie would be the one to take out Kylo in the end. Justice for Han! I know people have said Chewie *couldn't* do it as he's obviously watched Ben grow from being a baby and probably acted as a fierce protector of him for year but to that I say; he shot him in the nuts with his Bowcaster already. He's ready to off him.
Plus it would be a nice wee change for the Big Force User to get REKT by a Wookie; rather than going out in a lightsaber battle.

 

 

At this point I would be ok if all the old characters died or disappeared or something from the main story. They can't keep on mixing the two generations to keep everyone happy. They are making a push to ditch the old, let them go all the way.

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I've been thinking about it since Sunday night and feel I will only know how I really feel about it after a 2nd viewing. Like I did with TFA I carried my expectations and hopes of what I wanted to see happen with Luke into the movie and as a result the first viewings of both left me quite underwhelmed. They both have incredible moments

 

The throne room scene in TLJ is probably the best action scene in any Star Wars movie to date for me

but as an overall experience neither of them really hit the mark. The biggest issue is that I don't think the movies are really at fault. I had already decided years ago how Luke would appear in new movies and when that didn't materialise exactly as I had envisaged it left me disappointed.

 

 

What Luke does at the end of the TLJ is arguably the most powerful action we have seen from any character in a Star Wars movie, yet it had me going 'why the fuck wasn't he actually there kicking arse'. In the context of the movie, Luke's path as the movie dictates and how other character arcs must progress he couldn't possibly return but in that moment it was all I wanted to see. Everything with Kylo and Rey was fantastic, suggesting the focus being entirely on them in the next movie could lead to something special but like I said I think it is going to take another viewing for me to really appreciate just how intricate and well crafted it is. Sure, throw Luke in as a Force Ghost and have him offer guidance and torment to Rey and Kylo respectively but please for fuck sake stand by the divisive decisions that have been made with Johnson's movie and see these arcs throw to their conclusion. If JJ comes back in and starts trying to unpick the issues that people believe TLJ created then it will just make it worse. Portraying Luke as he is in TLJ was a very bold possibly cold decision but it is one they have to stand by, for better or worse.

 

Of course there were also a load of questions from TFA that either got harsh truths compared to the fan theories or completely ignored, but there is only 1 that it is really pissing me of at the moment and shows quite clearly that there was a change in direction for Luke when Johnson started his script

 

The map to Skywalker, the entire catalyst for the plot in TFA makes no sense given how we find Luke. Unless I have missed something he says quite clearly to Rey that he came to Ach To to die, that he has no intention of ever returning and he mocks her for thinking that was the case. That's fine mate, but why the fuck did you leave a map if you wanted to be left alone?! Nobody knew where Luke went, how could they when part of the map was inside a dormant R2-D2. TLJ tries to put to bed all the little breadcrumbs that suggested Luke had a grand plan but the map is just completely ignored and for me its the most important point. Has this been answered by Johnson or someone else associated with the movie or has it just been buried under the more trivial issues that people have?

 

So a 2nd viewing with all my baggage removed may lead to me appreciating the movie a lot more and how it has set things up to come but the monumental gap I have mentioned above is completely ruining an otherwise acceptable change of direction.

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:
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Man, the lives of the original cast were bleak!

 

Toppling the empire meant bugger all because apparently it was replaced 10 minutes later with another empire WITH NEW HAT!


Han Solo's relationship breaks down, possibly due to his son turning evil and he reverts to sadly trying to recapture his glory days, all he's missing is a ponytail and a earring. Then he gets ganked by said son.

Luke Skywalker tries to to resurrect the Jedi, monumentally fucks up. Spends the remainder of his days as a weird hermit drinking alien titty milk. 

Leia, see point 1, going to die between films now.

People want Lando back for the next one. Don't! They'll probably have given him space AIDS or something.

 

 

"Toppling the empire meant bugger all because apparently it was replaced 10 minutes later with another empire WITH NEW HAT!"

 

I had always considered The First Order to be far, far smaller in size than the Galactic Empire. They're like a ramblin' group of neo-nazi's and old military commanders who can't let the Galactic Empire Army go. Like an army without a "country".

The Resistance too, are a small band of freedom fighters who aren't taken seriously by the New Republic. 

 

From Wookiepedia (yeah, .. I know) 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order

 

"Despite further acts of defiance to the treaty, the Galactic Senate did not regard the First Order as a serious threat to the Republic. However, the Senate's inaction motivated the Rebel veteran Princess Leia Organa to found the Resistance."

 

"For the three decades after Endor, the First Order would largely escape galactic attention, with many in the New Republic Senate believing that it posed no real threat to the galaxy at large."

 

Leia was the one that pushed to continue the fight and eradicate the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Everyone continued to do what they've always done.  

 

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8 minutes ago, Gregory Wolfe said:

 

 

That doesn't really solve the inconsistencies between the two films though.

 

Spoiler

"That's it, I'm done with the Jedi! I don't want want anything else to do with them!

I'm going to spend the rest of my life on the island where they came from."

 

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2 hours ago, ryodi said:

 

 

 

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It would be absolutely hilarious if Poe ends up in charge after all his alpha male hero antics wiped out all of the existing leadership
 

 

 

That wasn't on him.

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1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

At this point I would be ok if all the old characters died or disappeared or something from the main story. They can't keep on mixing the two generations to keep everyone happy. They are making a push to ditch the old, let them go all the way.

 

No. Chewie4Ever.

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20 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order

 

"Despite further acts of defiance to the treaty, the Galactic Senate did not regard the First Order as a serious threat to the Republic. However, the Senate's inaction motivated the Rebel veteran Princess Leia Organa to found the Resistance."

 

"For the three decades after Endor, the First Order would largely escape galactic attention, with many in the New Republic Senate believing that it posed no real threat to the galaxy at large."

 

Leia was the one that pushed to continue the fight and eradicate the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Everyone continued to do what they've always done.  

Well, none of that was up on the screen. It doesn't even make sense for there to be a resistance that's not opposed to the galactic government - they sound more like Antifa than anything. I did continue to get the impression during The Last Jedi, though, that all the events were pretty much like a local bush fire, with the rest of the galaxy largely indifferent to the travails of the First Order and Resistance.

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29 minutes ago, Gregory Wolfe said:

 

 

Yeah it just happened to be split into two pieces one of which was in R2D2 for the craic. And his mate just kept that hidden, you know, just in case Luke went there.

 

The Resistance / Republic is now even more confusing. Did the First Order just take down the Republic's paramilitary wing, or capture the entire New Republic?

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16 minutes ago, Mr Cochese said:

Well, none of that was up on the screen. It doesn't even make sense for there to be a resistance that's not opposed to the galactic government - they sound more like Antifa than anything. I did continue to get the impression during The Last Jedi, though, that all the events were pretty much like a local bush fire, with the rest of the galaxy largely indifferent to the travails of the First Order and Resistance.

 

I think this is generally the case, TLJ takes place immediately after the events of TFA and the destruction of Star Killer base. What you're seeing is probably the last remains of The First Order chasing the last remains of The Resistance. The Resistance are in opposition to The First Order, which the New Republic underestimated to their doom. 

 

The Canto Bight stuff shows that the rest of the Galaxy doesn't really give a fuck, but inequality runs rife without The New Republic. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

Yeah it just happened to be split into two pieces one of which was in R2D2 for the craic. And his mate just kept that hidden, you know, just in case Luke went there.

 

The Resistance / Republic is now even more confusing. Did the First Order just take down the Republic's paramilitary wing, or capture the entire New Republic?

 

 

The New Republic are located in the Hosnian system, and they didn't consider The First Order to be a threat at all. Leia knew otherwise and formed The Resistance, which the New Republic also didn't take seriously. 

 

The First Order essentially built a giant Iraq Supergun on a nearby planet  -  Starkiller base is not a Death Star even though it's appearance is meant to evoke the look of The Death Star - and completely wiped out The New Republic with one shot from it's cannon. They're gone, but The Resistance remain to fight The First Order. 

 

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9 minutes ago, kensei said:

The New Republic was 5 planets? 

 

The Planet Hosnian Prime is the capital of The New Republic, and will work like the Galactic Republic on Coruscant, senators from other planets all meet and politically debate there... so there's lots of systems belonging to the Republic but with the capital completely destroyed, it will throw everything into disarray. 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime

 

Edit : Apparently they rotate which planet is the capital, in order to prevent the rise of tyranny from one system, like Coruscant. Regardless, every leader and Senator in The New Republic was killed. 

 

"With the Galactic Civil War concluded, the New Republic sought to reshape galactic politics in an effort to both prevent the abuses of the Old Republic and bring in disaffected worlds that had seceded from the Republic prior to the Clone Wars. To accomplish this, the new Senate decided that all worlds would have an equal say in their government, and as such all worlds had an equal chance of hosting the New Republic's capital on a rotating basis, rather than simply remaining on Coruscant alone"

 

Deep nerd shit. 

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Well I bleeding loved it. Up there with top tier Star Wars films for me. Granted, the casino section wasn't great, but no worse than all that nonsense on Han's ship in TFA, and probably only accounts for about 10 minutes screen time any way.

 

Interesting listening to RJ on Kermode and Mayo this week saying how Luke's island was inspired by Myazaki. Can definitely see that on reflection.

 

Tickets booked to watch again Friday.

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14 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

The Planet Hosnian Prime is the capital of The New Republic, and will work like the Galactic Republic on Coruscant, senators from other planets all meet and politically debate there... so there's lots of systems belonging to the Republic but with the capital completely destroyed, it will throw everything into disarray. 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime

 

Edit : Apparently they rotate which planet is the capital, in order to prevent the rise of tyranny from one system, like Coruscant. Regardless, every leader and Senator in The New Republic was killed. 

 

"With the Galactic Civil War concluded, the New Republic sought to reshape galactic politics in an effort to both prevent the abuses of the Old Republic and bring in disaffected worlds that had seceded from the Republic prior to the Clone Wars. To accomplish this, the new Senate decided that all worlds would have an equal say in their government, and as such all worlds had an equal chance of hosting the New Republic's capital on a rotating basis, rather than simply remaining on Coruscant alone"

 

Deep nerd shit

We're well past the point of needing to suffix our posts with that!

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18 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

The Planet Hosnian Prime is the capital of The New Republic, and will work like the Galactic Republic on Coruscant, senators from other planets all meet and politically debate there... so there's lots of systems belonging to the Republic but with the capital completely destroyed, it will throw everything into disarray. 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime

 

Edit : Apparently they rotate which planet is the capital, in order to prevent the rise of tyranny from one system, like Coruscant. Regardless, every leader and Senator in The New Republic was killed. 

 

"With the Galactic Civil War concluded, the New Republic sought to reshape galactic politics in an effort to both prevent the abuses of the Old Republic and bring in disaffected worlds that had seceded from the Republic prior to the Clone Wars. To accomplish this, the new Senate decided that all worlds would have an equal say in their government, and as such all worlds had an equal chance of hosting the New Republic's capital on a rotating basis, rather than simply remaining on Coruscant alone"

 

Deep nerd shit. 

 

So either the Republic is still extant and presumably has a fuckton of ships or the New Order just took them all over. Either way the "there's only 6 people and a port left" is just confusing.

 

The Republic in disarray, the experienced military leadership pinned in and needing time for the remaining Republic fleet to regroup seems quite enough stakes. Why does the film present it as all hope being snuffed out and they have to go the Outer Rim for help?

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3 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

So either the Republic is still extant and presumably has a fuckton of ships or the New Order just took them all over. Either way the "there's only 6 people and a port left" is just confusing.

 

The Republic in disarray, the experienced military leadership pinned in and needing time for the remaining Republic fleet to regroup seems quite enough stakes. Why does the film present it as all hope being snuffed out and they have to go the Outer Rim for help?

 

Sorry, but I don't understand anything you're saying, just being straight up honest. 

 

The New Republic - just like the old one - has no army to speak of at all. No defenses. This is why The Resistance was formed as an independent thing by General Organa as she felt a Resistance army made of volunteers was needed to counter the growing First Order.   

 

Both the Resistance and The First Order buy a lot of there stuff from independent dealers from around the Galaxy, which was touched on in the new film. 

 

End of TLJ - 

 



Why do the last few members of The Resistance feel they have to go to the Outer Rim for help? Because with The New Republic gone, greed and inequality is everywhere in the richer systems - which is the theme that the Canto Bight scene riffs on - the downtrodden and abused are the people most likely to sympathise with The Resistance and join them to become freedom fighters. 

I presume this is why they're heading to the outer rim, to get help from the people who live on outer rim shit holes like Tatooine or Jakku. 

People like Rey, or other's with a change of heart like Finn. 

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