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MalevolentPanda

Performance Enhancing Drugs in Cycling and Other Sports

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It's simply not true that food consumption gives a level playing field. Not all dietary programmes are the same, and not all can be afforded by all athletes. A proper nutrition programme with a qualified chef and dietician is very expensive. The diet that Armstrong ate wasn't what everyone else on the tour was on at all. Etc...

Substitute equipment, training routines and genetics as you please.

A good drug programme is a necessary but not sufficient requirement to compete at the top level, just as with every other element of sport.

Err, you were the one who said taking drugs would level the playing field. Now you're arguing something completely different.

This is complete and utter nonsense.

To begin with, elite level athletics is already partially a battle about who is willing to risk their long term health and longevity the most - drugs don't change that. In fact, one job of drugs is to keep athletes healthier, help them recover quicker and enable them to survive the training they need to do at that level.

People are already on significant amounts of drugs in the elite levels of just about every sport and people aren't "dying all over the place".

I can hardly believe you've written that my post was nonsense and then come out with that. Some people take some drugs now so nothing would change if everyone could take whatever drugs they wanted? When your preceding post that I was responding too was about how freaky people's physical parameters would get if there were no boundaries. You're talking rubbish. If drugs were a free for all you'd have people with 70% haematocrit levels and shit. Of course it would be more dangerous.

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They don't use drugs or those sports have people dying all over the place?

Flo-Jo died from an epilepsy attack you spanner.

And Boogaard died from an accidental overdose, you prick. Rypien committed suicide, you cock. The drugs don't kill people, the long term effects do... you knob.

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Hockey seems to have a problem with pain killers. Moreso for the players who's job is to enforce and fight a lot. Been a couple of suicides recently due to depression with a link to heavy use of painkillers and/or concussions.

http://en.wikipedia..../Derek_Boogaard

Sounds massively like wresting. Understandable really. It annoys me when people get busted for painkillers as it's basically a mechanism of subsisting not dicking it over other people.

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Err, you were the one who said taking drugs would level the playing field. Now you're arguing something completely different.

To attempt to level the playing field you need everything to be as up to scratch as possible. Food, training, genetics, recovery, drugs and so on. If one of those things lacks, then you are not on a level playing field with someone who has all that. The top level athletes (podium finishers) have all of this going for them, so to attempt to compete on a level playing field with them, you need all of this going for you, too.

I can hardly believe you've written that my post was nonsense and then come out with that. Some people take some drugs now so nothing would change if everyone could take whatever drugs they wanted? When your preceding post that I was responding too was about how freaky people's physical parameters would get if there were no boundaries. You're talking rubbish. If drugs were a free for all you'd have people with 70% haematocrit levels and shit. Of course it would be more dangerous.

No, not some people. All the top place finishers and best performers. The people who don't take drugs are the losers.

The drug users are always a couple of years ahead of the drug testers - so they are already on pretty much whatever drugs they want. There are many ways of masking drugs in tests, and the "cheaters" are always one step ahead.

A drug "free for all" would (in my opinion) mainly change this idea that drugs are (always) cheating/immoral - drug usage would become more open, and people would be able to see some of the incredible benefits of certain drugs to balance the fear mongering that already exists. Sure, usage would change somewhat and we would likely see improved performance - but that would be largely because people wouldn't have to cycle off drugs to avoid tests, they could stay on a cycle through an event.

For example, currently a top class weightlifter has to cycle off a certain amount of time before a tested event - so they blast the drugs massively in the offseason, calculate the half life of their drugs, then cycle off the testable elements in time for the contest. Naturally their performance diminishes somewhat, but it is still greater than if they never used - but also still less than if they could use right up until contest time.

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pretty much every top level athlete in the world will have used performance enhancing drugs. it's more prevalent in some sports than others, but you're kidding yourself if you think people in the top 0.0001% genetic pool aren't going to use every advantage available to beat the competition.

right now a problem in olympic weightlifting is that it's dominated by eastern europe and china, as it has been since the cold war. there are loads of reasons for that but part of it is that drug testing is much stricter in Britain and America, massively limiting our potential!

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It's a real shame about Armstrong. So many believe him and will continue to believe him and see the USADA as persecutors of their hero. He doesn't deserve the adulation.

I was amazed to see that Vaughters is one of the supposed whistleblowers, since he set up Garmin Slipstream with Doug Ellis and Millar as a famously clean team. Didn't that also start with the core US group of Zabriskie, Vande Velde and someone else who is supposed to be testifying and taking an off season 6 month ban in return? Don't think it was Hincapie as he was with Armstrong for every one of his tour wins... but maybe I shouldn't be surprised, it's very telling that JV was in USPS during LA's first win in 99 and in Millar's book, when he talked about setting up the new team, he alluded to mistakes that JV had made in his past without providing any details.

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The truth of that saga is that they aren't whistle blowing out of a sense of right. They are grassing up so they don't get charged too, getting off with a slap on the wrist. It was obvious Armstrong doped. Just like the guys he was beating who have since been charged or caught (Pantani, Ullrich, Basso). It's very noticeable Basso is nothing like the same rider since his return after his ban. Is that because he's riding clean? That and pretty much every one of the blue train that left got caught and banned (Landis, Hamilton, Heras).

Personally I think he outed himself as a class A cunt with his involvement in the harassment of Lemond. You know the guy that got abused for always saying he knew Armstrong doped.

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Well since they all doped so they could primarily win him tours, I have some sympathy for that.

Ferrari and that twat Bruyneel should be the ones properly hung out to dry though.

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I love the tour, but I'd guess the majority of the teams were at it. If anything it would just seem that UPS/Discovery where just better at it than others.

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Remember, the only reason THG can be tested for is because Trevor Graham delivered a sample of it to the US Anti-Doping Agency. Up until that point, it was completely invisible and you had Marion Jones beating the world on it. It's not a massive leap of faith to assume that this drug has been replaced with something else. I don't think individual countries testing regiemes are particualrly relevant, since all meaningful (that is to say this big money events) track and field athletics takes place in Europe where there are very strict controls.

What is more likely is that there is a THG replacement, that simply cannot be tested for.

I really, really really want to beleive that Bolt isn't using, but the drop in times in recent years especially in the 100/200M (which is like taking 20 seconds off the 1500M) is just too big.

As an aside, a friend of mine is at the olympics as part of the drug testing team. The training is extremely intense (actors hired to play atheletes, and fulfulling their part to the point of making themselves sick and going into hysterics etc). She has the 100M final. She gets given a "place".. so they will say to her just before the race "Right, you are takign the athlete who finished 3rd" and she has to stay with him/her from the moment they cross the line, until they get to the testing room. And she has to stay a pace or two behind them at all times, in case they try and palm something off or collect something.

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If I think about it too much I realise that sport is ultimately pointless, so I choose to remain mostly unaware :)

I do think though if Sagan is heavily doping, he's not doing much to hide it! He could at least look like he was out of breath after his second stage win!

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As an aside, a friend of mine is at the olympics as part of the drug testing team. The training is extremely intense (actors hired to play atheletes, and fulfulling their part to the point of making themselves sick and going into hysterics etc). She has the 100M final. She gets given a "place".. so they will say to her just before the race "Right, you are takign the athlete who finished 3rd" and she has to stay with him/her from the moment they cross the line, until they get to the testing room. And she has to stay a pace or two behind them at all times, in case they try and palm something off or collect something.

Wow, so whoever has the first place one would have to follow them round if they did a lap of honour, and watch extra carefully if they grabbed a flag off someone in the crowd, and stuff?

Oh, and what if it's a photo finish, how do they know who to follow?

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Wow, so whoever has the first place one would have to follow them round if they did a lap of honour, and watch extra carefully if they grabbed a flag off someone in the crowd, and stuff?

Oh, and what if it's a photo finish, how do they know who to follow?

Yup - they have to run round with them (as best they can!). They arenlt allowed to leave their side until they ar ein the testing area. So if they go into press conferences and that first or ge tinterviewed they have to be right with them the whole time. Dunno about a photo - Its random so it might be that first place is tested, but second isn't - So I guess if there was doubt they would still follow their man just in case.

In the training they kept trying to catch them out, so the "athletes" would open doors for people and that, and rather than walk through you are supposed to insist that they go first.

In one training thingy, an "athelete" that was expected to win came in 7th and literally went mental.

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I read an article in the Guardian a while back about how the majority of athletes are permanently on painkillers and need them just to train as the standard is so high now, the fda are debating whether to ban painkillers in sport and if they do then no records are ever going to be broken again as its painkillers which allow records to be broken.

Doping in sport is acceptable as most sports themselves are insidious, doping applies to technology as well, remember the uproar a few years back about the special swimsuit or even back in the day trainers! Only the top 0.001% make it in any field and the majority who tried have their childhoods ruined for nothing. Look how many criminals are/were "promising young footballers".

Interesting article here about how doping should be allowed: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/bring-truth-into-play-by-saying-yes-to-drugs-in-sport-20120628-215cn.html

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Doping charges explanation.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to summarise all of that, looks fairly plain to see I suppose! I was coming from a position of no knowledge other than his autobiography, which, cancer stuff aside, did make me think that he was a bit of a dick when it came to actually racing, and in general I suppose!

How much of a boost are we talking that these drugs give you? Enough to win the Tour de France I suppose must be a fair boost!

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How much of a boost are we talking that these drugs give you? Enough to win the Tour de France I suppose must be a fair boost!

sort of accurate but misleading. they're enough to give the world's greatest athletes a slight edge over other elite athletes who haven't used the same quantities of drugs or haven't used them as recently, or as effectively. a mediocre or even top level athlete on gear is still going to be trounced by a natural elite.

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Look how many criminals are/were "promising young footballers".

I always just assumed that was a euphemism for "little prick who failed at school".

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sort of accurate but misleading. they're enough to give the world's greatest athletes a slight edge over other elite athletes who haven't used the same quantities of drugs or haven't used them as recently, or as effectively. a mediocre or even top level athlete on gear is still going to be trounced by a natural elite.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. It would be interesting to see then someone like Lance Armstrong have a pre and post comparison, to see how much a benefit it really gives. I guess something like that will never happen though, and probably would be extremely hard to do accurately anyway with something like cycling.

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I'm still slightly confused why drugs are banned in the olympics but cheating by having 2 giant spring loaded legs to assist you isn't and the only reason I've come up with so far is they think they're safe because the guy won't win.

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I'm still slightly confused why drugs are banned in the olympics but cheating by having 2 giant spring loaded legs to assist you isn't and the only reason I've come up with so far is they think they're safe because the guy won't win.

You mean the only reason apart from missing the lower half of both of his legs, and all the assorted muscles & extremities that go with them?

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