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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

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2 hours ago, Eighthours said:

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

 

Don't know if anyone has followed the whole ProJared thing at all (I only realised it had happened when I clicked on the video below)? But this question reminded me of it a lot. I have only really seen Jared's side of the story, so I don't know the ins and outs at all. But this is his response to the allegations leveled against him (I don't want to call them false objectively or anything, so wasn't quite sure how to word this).

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eighthours said:

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

 

They take the accuser to court for slander and require an apology as part of the settlement. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They take the accuser to court for slander and require an apology as part of the settlement. 

 

Do you think that cancels out the damage done?

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1 minute ago, PeteBrant said:

Do you think that cancels out the damage done?

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

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35 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

 

What's the going rate for being called a pedo for the majority of your life or knowing that your life is being affected by people making decisions who haven't seen that you won the slander case?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sane said:

In reality there are not 10 innocents brought down for each guilty one though. If anything the amount of innocent men being accused of abuse is a fraction of the amount of guilty men. Of course there's no way to prove this, but we all know it's true. It doesn't solve the dilemma but it does place it in a more honest context.

 

 

Time for me to also be pedantic.   You can't know something to be true if you have no way to prove it.  You merely have an opinion. One that could be wrong .

 

That doesn't mean I disagree with your general view though.

 

 

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Just now, rafaqat said:

Time for me to also be pedantic.   You can't know something to be true if you have no way to prove it.  You merely have an opinion. One that could be wrong .

 

 

Which kind of means that survivors of abuse  are back in the "deal with it / don't talk about it" place. Because unless you report it within 24 hours and there's still physical evidence than there's nothing.

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1 minute ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

Which kind of means that survivors of abuse  are back in the "deal with it / don't talk about it" place. Because unless you report it within 24 hours and there's still physical evidence than there's nothing.

 

My comment was more around Sane claiming it's clearly true that more guilty men are accused than innocent men even though there's no way to prove it.   I agree with him . I'm just saying you can't state it's 100% truth/fact.

 

 

With regards to your comment,  you have to believe people when they make an accusation but if there's no proof what do you expect the authorities to do though when it's just one persons word against the other?   What would be the correct response from the authorities when faced with that and an investigation reveals nothing?

 

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49 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

How do you quanitify the damage done to your reputation amongst friends and peers? What number do you put on that? ( assuming You can actually afford to take it to court).

 

Surely the way to avoid all that is to fix the system at the point of accusation. I.e make reporting to HR/Police etc a system that works. Because a system, of public outing on social media is not the answer.

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8 minutes ago, rafaqat said:

 

What's the going rate for being called a pedo for the majority of your life or knowing that your life is being affected by people making decisions who haven't seen that you won the slander case?

 

 

 

 

I don't think they set "going rates". Do you think they should?

 

Also, if someone subsequently calls someone a paedophile after that person has already successfully sued someone who made a similar accusation, they'll be finding themselves in court pretty quickly.

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1 minute ago, Rev said:

 

I don't think they set "going rates". Do you think they should?

 

Also, if someone subsequently calls someone a paedophile after that person has already successfully sued someone who made a similar accusation, they'll be finding themselves in court pretty quickly.

 

The point I was making (badly) was that you can't really set an amount and think it cancels it all out like you're making out. 

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1 minute ago, rafaqat said:

 

With regards to your comment,  you have to believe people when they make an accusation but if there's no proof what do you expect the authorities to do though when it's just one persons word against the other?   What would be the correct response from the authorities when faced with that and an investigation reveals nothing?

 

 

And I guess this is where metoo, Royal Comissions or calling out come into play. Because one or two people coming forward will generally lead to more people coming forward and at least prevent future abuse. It also allows the possibility of recognising what survivors have been through and getting them resources and help.

 

I don't know how you resolve the issue of potential bad actors but there are many men who if they hadn't of been called out would have continued to abuse the people around them were it not for calling this behaviour out publicly.

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3 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

And I guess this is where metoo, Royal Comissions or calling out come into play. Because one or two people coming forward will generally lead to more people coming forward and at least prevent future abuse. It also allows the possibility of recognising what survivors have been through and getting them resources and help.

 

I don't know how you resolve the issue of potential bad actors but there are many men who if they hadn't of been called out would have continued to abuse the people around them were it not for calling this behaviour out publicly.

 

Yup. As mentioned further up.   If people weren't made to feel like they were regarded as liars or "asking for it" from the get go then more people would report it and the patterns of the serial abusers would be picked up much earlier  by the authorities 

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1 minute ago, rafaqat said:

 

The point I was making (badly) was that you can't really set an amount and think it cancels it all out like you're making out. 

 

How much needs to be cancelled out? Do you really think someone who has an apology from their accuser would have a problem getting a job in the games industry, with it in mind people who are proven to be abusive bullies continue to work without any real repercussions?

 

Also, while this (fictional) man may have their life ruined despite receiving an apology and damages, I think it's much more likely a man who successfully sued their accuser would become a minor celebrity and be hero-worshipped by the scum of the internet. He'd probably end up with a speaking tour. That's how the world works.

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5 hours ago, Phelan said:

Don’t be a pedantic twat you know what I mean. 

 

People can can work their ass off and do nothing wrong for twenty years and a rumour can kill their career or their life. 

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

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14 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

I highly doubt this to be true.

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1 hour ago, Anne Summers said:

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

Just to be clear , you are asserting there has never been an example of anyone suffering personally or professionally as a result of a public allegation , moreover if it results in suicide , it’s a case of no smoke without fire .? Have I got that right ?

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18 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Just to be clear , you are asserting there has never been an example of anyone suffering personally or professionally as a result of a public allegation , moreover if it results in suicide , it’s a case of no smoke without fire .? Have I got that right ?

I wouldn't go as far as saying never. 

If it results in suicide, I would say it is much more likely to be a case of guilty conscience. Just seems far more likely a scenario to me than someone committing suicide because ... they are upset about false accusations being made against them..? I'm actually not sure what is being postulated as the driver behind innocent people committing suicide after receiving false allegations.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Just seems far more likely a scenario to me than someone committing suicide because ... they are upset about false accusations being made against them..? I'm actually not sure what is being postulated as the driver behind innocent people committing suicide after receiving false allegations.

 

 

You can’t picture , say, a scenario where someone abandoned  by friends and family , loss of job , labelled in a certain way due to a public allegation would consider suicide as a way out ? 

 

Just to be clear I am taking about public allegations here , not a allegation made through a more “official” channel . And by no

means am i berating those people that have used social media to make accusations . The system is clearly broken if victims feel that social media is the only way they can start to come to terms with what has happened to them and is some way to find an outlet . But the solution is to fix the system . I realise of course that it is not something you can fix overnight . 

 

It is hard to see how long term , the use of social media as a platform to make allegations can have a good outcome as a whole . Nothwithstanding the metoo , movement which of course highlighted the depth of the problem with being believed . 

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3 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

You can’t picture , say, a scenario where someone abandoned  by friends and family , loss of job , labelled in a certain way due to a public allegation would consider suicide as a way out ? 

 

 

 

 

I can picture it ... I just find it very unlikely. If I heard someone had committed suicide after being the subject of allegations ... Particularly from multiple people - I would be inclined to believe they were guilty.

 

 

Quote

It is hard to see how long term , the use of social media as a platform to make allegations can have a good outcome as a whole . Nothwithstanding the metoo , movement which of course highlighted the depth of the problem with being believed . 

 

I find this statement a bit contradictory - you seem to be saying you don't see how making allegations via social media can have a good outcome - then stating that the #metoo movement - a movement centering around allegations made over social media - DID have a good outcome. So I'm a little confused. 

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just google

 

man committed suicide after false rape allegations

 

(or indeed paedophile accusations)

 

There are cases... you might decide they are small enough in regularity to be statistical anomalies - but those anomalies are still avoidable suicides, they are victims as well.

 

We need to be careful how we tread and we need to consider many angles. What we need is better policing, better CPS support, better conviction rates and we need women to be believed more readily. If we had all of  those then maybe people who had suffered sexual abuse attacks might feel like they could approach the authorities instead of finding the only outlet that they "trust" or worse.

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Just now, Anne Summers said:

 

 

I find this statement a bit contradictory - you seem to be saying you don't see how making allegations via social media can have a good outcome - then stating that the #metoo movement - a movement centering around allegations made over social media - DID have a good outcome. So I'm a little confused. 

 

 

I don’t agree that it’s contradictory , as I said , as a whole , it should be not become the de facto standard method of making allegations . Metoo highlighted a problem , the problem should be fixed . If people continue to feel that making allegations via social media is the only recourse they have , then nothing has been fixed . And I don’t think that’s a desireable outcome . 

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29 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to legal proceedings. 

 

I've no doubt that your own perspective would transcend the law.

 

Blessed are the self-righteous. 

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30 minutes ago, Made of Ghosts said:

Perhaps not directly relevant to the sexual assault conversation but here's a good/very depressing read about how public outcry (over a much milder perceived offence) can trigger someone to commit suicide:

 

https://quillette.com/2019/01/30/the-death-of-a-dreamer/

 

No comment being made about the article, just a reminder of the platform.

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette

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